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Post by alteregomaniak on Nov 19, 2012 20:25:52 GMT -5
Anyway, one thing I didn't understand in this episode was the changes in Haven (the herald, The Guard helping the troubled get out of Haven, Nathan's death [again!], etc). If the things that happened were supposed to happen, why there were changes? I explained this to myself by saying that everything had to happen exactly as it went down for the future to look the way we see it regularly on the show. So if at any moment in the past something different were to happen it would veer the timeline off course. The adapting alternate future then represented all those possibilities that may have arisen had the next thing in the past not happened/happened differently. I'm no expert on the time-travel troupe and I'm sure the writers took some liberties, but it worked and was cool enough that I didn't mind any inconsistencies or errors.
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Post by killabeez on Nov 19, 2012 21:02:20 GMT -5
Anyway, one thing I didn't understand in this episode was the changes in Haven (the herald, The Guard helping the troubled get out of Haven, Nathan's death [again!], etc). If the things that happened were supposed to happen, why there were changes? There are a few different theories about how time travel might happen, and whether/how paradoxes might form if time travel into the past were possible. This episode had a lot in common with the movie Looper in terms of how it conceptualizes time travel—and though it was obviously a Back to the Future homage, it actually doesn't adhere to the same rules as Back to the Future—with one exception. I'm going to copy and paste some comments I made in alethialia's journal: Most TV/movie time travel stories, including most of Back to the Future, follow the Many Worlds theory. Basically, each time you make a decision that alters causality, a new universe splits off, and you proceed down the riverway of that particular universe until you make another decision, which creates another universe, etc. The only way to get back to "your" universe is to travel backwards in time again to a point before the first split you made, and this time make a different choice, so that you get back into "your" riverway. This theory is one way to explain how paradoxes can't happen. For example, Marty McFly goes to the Twin Pines mall in 1985, but after he goes back to 1955 and kills one of the trees, he then can only jump forward to the 1985 in which the mall is called Lone Pine Mall. He can only go forward down the branch of the river he created. However, in Star Trek IV, Scotty reassures Kirk that he was right to share the formula for transparent aluminum with a 20th century chemist by saying, "how do you know he didn't invent the thing?" That's what we had in "Sarah"—a closed time loop. But it's contradicted by the fact that AU Nathan (who remembered Dave killing Vince) goes back in time to a point after Duke already saved Roy once and changed things. So the Nathan in 1955 and the Duke in 1955 actually didn't share the same experiences at all—and were probably unaware of that fact. One thing that was really interesting about Looper was that Bruce Willis's character, living in his own past, experienced his memories changing fluidly as he affected his own past—in much the same way that Marty McFly saw himself vanishing from the photograph in Back to the Future. (The photograph contradicts the Many Worlds theory, since instead of seeing himself gradually vanish, Marty's photo should be "locked" into the same riverway of time that he is, and never change. The other version of that photo, without him in it, should exist in another timeline by the other rules of those movies.) The question is, what would happen to AU Nathan's memory of the universe he came from? Are we permanently now stuck with AU Nathan, who has different memories prior to his time jump than "our" Nathan? Possibly. But because the idea is that Duke and Nathan always went back and always created "our" timeline, it's also possible that Nathan's memories merged, and he either now remembers his own history again, or else remembers both versions of his history. My interpretation, and I'm likely to make a longer post about this if I can find time, is that the Haven 'verse is quite fluid, and that what we saw with Audrey and AU Claire and AU Garland is only the most likely future that might have happened from the point where Duke first saved Roy. So instead of a river with many branches, each equally real, the Haven 'verse is more like layers of cellophane universes onionskinned on top of each other, with the most likely one on top. Nathan's memories may now be the same, so that he once again remembers the same history that we (and Audrey and Duke) do. You can read a bit more about this type of time travel paradox here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradoxI also saw someone (and I'm sorry I can't remember who) say (on Twitter?) that Audrey may throw the whole logic of time travel right into the crapper in this situation, since she's immune to the Troubles. It might be that if she hadn't been in the present-day Haven, being immune to the whole thing, none of those alternate futures would have been realized.
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Post by killabeez on Nov 19, 2012 21:11:53 GMT -5
Incidentally, after I posted that on her journal, Nora Zuckerman tweeted:
""He remembers Sarah, etc, just not the Vince/Dave alternate stuff that changed before he went back to 1955."
I asked whether he's aware that his memories have changed, but she didn't answer me.
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Post by valfromrome on Nov 20, 2012 12:15:12 GMT -5
This board is dead lol Anyway, one thing I didn't understand in this episode was the changes in Haven (the herald, The Guard helping the troubled get out of Haven, Nathan's death [again!], etc). If the things that happened were supposed to happen, why there were changes? This is what I hate about time travel episode...I think some things were meant to happen no matter what, while some other things could change. Also I agree with this theory Killabeez posted: I think Nathan remembers everything about his meeting with Sarah, but he doesn't remember anything about the AU Haven. So the time loop is closed and Haven is back to normal. Plus this is what Nora Z. tweeted about it: Haven fans asking which timeline Nathan would remember - his memories "reverted" when the timeline was fixed.
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Post by killabeez on Nov 20, 2012 13:24:18 GMT -5
The thing is, the Nathan who met Sarah and interacted with her was a completely different Nathan than our Nathan. We don't know how different, but certainly not the same guy, if he lived in a world where there was no Vince, Dave had killed him, and who knows what else was different. So if he "remembers everything" that happened with Sarah, he remembers it with the perspective of a different person than the guy it actually happened to.
I don't expect the show to deal with any of this. I think it's easy for them to say "he remembers what we saw." But the reality is more complicated than that.
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Post by valfromrome on Nov 20, 2012 17:46:59 GMT -5
The thing is, the Nathan who met Sarah and interacted with her was a completely different Nathan than our Nathan. We don't know how different, but certainly not the same guy, if he lived in a world where there was no Vince, Dave had killed him, and who knows what else was different. So if he "remembers everything" that happened with Sarah, he remembers it with the perspective of a different person than the guy it actually happened to. I don't expect the show to deal with any of this. I think it's easy for them to say "he remembers what we saw." But the reality is more complicated than that. I agree that Nathan who went there wasn't exactly that Nathan we know (also the line about being with Jordan belongs to a different reality imo), but I also think and I guess it's how the show is handling it, that Nathan's memories now are the same he had before Duke went in 1955. I think he does remember about Sarah, but he also is "our" Nathan. I stick with Nora Z. words even though logically there is a non sense. It's always like that with the time travel. In Spn for example, it was Dean to cause John's death and Mary's deal because he tried to change the past? I am pretty sure that it would have happened anyway..so in Haven things and people are back to normal, as if anything has never happened but Nathan (and Duke) remembers about his time travel. Yeah basically the show is going to make it easier than it is. I know...
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dordoris
Drunk and Disorderly
Posts: 208
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Post by dordoris on Nov 21, 2012 19:35:39 GMT -5
Exactly, but my original point is that shouldn't have happened any changes in Haven, because everything that happened was supposed to happen. Nathan and Duke haven't changed anything because they did what they have already done in the past (it doesn't make sense to me either). And what should be pointed out is the fact that Audrey only stayed in Haven because of that picture of Lucy in the Herald, if it wasn't for the HH she wouldn't have a reason to stay in Haven, which imo is the greatest change that could/should have happened if paper didn't exist.
Ok, this is getting really complicated. I guess I'll just squee over Sarah and Nathan...
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